Saturday, November 20, 2004

Sunday service in China

I just got back from an extended trip to Zhengzhou last month, and when a lady in a village I visited asked if I was saved, I noticed her Christian spring poster(Tsun Lian) that said "God loves people"(Shen Ai Se Ren) proudly displayed on her door. Matter of fact I saw serveral of these Christian spring posters thruought the village. I asked if I can go to chruch with her on Sunday(Zuo Li Bai) and she agreed. When she took me there, to my suprise it was not an underground church I heard in US media, but a 15-20 year old large church building with a big cross on top (just like a church in US, started by American teachers at SIAS business school in town.)

We attended sunday service with over 500 hundred people. The topic of surman was about the same as what I would expect in US chruch, and the only Gon An I saw was an old man (retired police?) wearing ragged uniform attending Sunday service.

I was there and I saw it with my own eyes that religious freedom does exist in China. All one has to do is go to China and see for themselves. To those who would still insist that religion in China isn't completely free, I would submit that:

1) Christianity is outright illegal in many countries. The Mormans and Baptists can only go into Iraq armed with guns and Bibles, after we dropped 1000 tons of dirty bombs and two WWII worth of conventional munitions on these poor souls. In another word the "liberated" "free" Iraqi muslins can either die by the depleted uranium or die (spiritually) by the Bible.

2) Many 1st world countries regulate religion: France, Germany both have anit-cult laws, and we all still remember what happened to the Davidian's "complete religious freedom" some whould self-righteousely hold China to.

25 Comments:

Blogger joeandres08703607 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4:06 PM  
Blogger Topgunn said...

It is excellent you had an opportunity to experience one of the few churches that the Chinese recognize. There are only 5 religions recognized by the government and the rest are illegial. Also, yes there are official churches in China, but those churches are official by Chinese standards and the Vatican does not support them. The underground churches are the catholic churches that follow the Vatican.

At least now the Vatican and Chinese gov. are going to resume talking and maybe one day everyone will win. Until then...

11:51 PM  
Blogger J. Edward Tremlett said...

I was there and I saw it with my own eyes that religious freedom does exist in China.

Yeah, as long as you resgister with the government. Any time a government can tell you that your church, itself, is either legal or illegal - rather than engaged in legal or illegal acts - you simply do not have religious freedom. You have only the illusion of such.

Christianity is outright illegal in many countries.

Agreed, and they're all Communist. China is Communist. Connect the dots.

Many 1st world countries regulate religion: France, Germany both have anit-cult laws,

Yes, and such laws suck. So what's your point? Two big sucks make a non-suck?

and we all still remember what happened to the Davidian's "complete religious freedom" some whould self-righteousely hold China to.

You are ill-informed if that's what you think it was about.

The Branch Davidians at Waco were raided because a UPS driver reported delivering empty grenade cases to the compound. After that, the government investigated, and determined there was enough evidence of weapons violations to justify a raid. The fact that the subsequent raid was poorly conducted and mismanaged to the point of lethal incompetence doesn't mean they were wrong to go in there.

If David Koresh had been content to preach the apocalypse and screw children, he would have been raided by child services once enough evidence had mounted, and would most likely be sitting in jail. And if he had merely been preaching the apocalypse, and screwing adults, they'd probably still be alive. But illegal weapons are illegal weapons, and that's why the raid happened.

3:14 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

Ed, you are mistaken. Many of our beloved middle-east "friendly nations" whos citizens flew jets into our tall buildings, outlaw Christianity.

But that's okay, they give us oil concessions way below OPEC price.

1:44 PM  
Blogger J. Edward Tremlett said...

"Many of our beloved middle-east "friendly nations" whos citizens flew jets into our tall buildings, outlaw Christianity."

That's wrong. 'Many' of them do not outlaw Christianity. Christians are free to practice their faith in just about every Muslim country in the middle east. They just can't convert the locals or proseletyze, since that's against Islam.

This is the point where you tell me "oh well they don't have freedom, do they?" and I tell you "well then neither does China."

J

7:39 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

And I forgot to mention Israel - they have anti-proseletization law.

If "they", including China, don't have freedom, then why are we singling out the Chinese?

Wait, they got oil and sell to us cheap. I guess them folks get a break.

11:03 PM  
Blogger J. Edward Tremlett said...

Why are you defending them?

Why are you Bobby Fletcher and Charles Liu at the same time?

Why are most of your posts to various blogs - under the name of Bobby Fletcher - C&Ps of things you've said somewhere else...?

I smell a rat.

J

5:27 AM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

I smell a rat too - you have no answer for the facts presented, now you are going after the messenger.

I'm sure it's very emotionally satisfying. But the facts will come to light. Those investigation UN and Congress started will come "official".

Ed, if you have question feel free to email me. I also post under "Sunday service in Xinzhen", if you have problem with that too, try deal with it.

11:32 AM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

I smell a rat too - you can't deal with the fact, now you are going after messenger.

You know all this will come to light soon. When the UN and Congressional investigation become "officia", I'll be sure to follow up with you.

bobby fletcher is my Half-Life handle, and my favorit puppet from Crank Yankers. If you don't like it, deal with it.

I also post under Sunday service in Xinzheng, if you don't like it, deal with it.

Better yet, deal out some money for a vacation package to China, so you take a look for yourself the people you've been dissing.

Exchange rate is still 8 to 1, you'll live like a king there, thanks to their willing economic servitude.

11:37 AM  
Blogger J. Edward Tremlett said...

I smell a rat too - you can't deal with the fact, now you are going after messenger.

I concede that the story may just be a story, but I'm going to hold out on retraction until I hear something official. No doubt you'll want to follow up if it's what you seem to want to hear.

bobby fletcher is my Half-Life handle, and my favorit puppet from Crank Yankers.

It's also the name you use when you show up on any blog post criticizing china and play the moral equivalency game with the people there. You do use your real name from time to time, though, I see.

Better yet, deal out some money for a vacation package to China, so you take a look for yourself the people you've been dissing.

It's not the people I'm dissing. It's the unelected government they can't overturn at this given time. And your odd tendency to make excuses for its excesses on blog after blog makes me wonder a lot about you.

J

8:58 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

J, "me wonder a lot" is some serious proof...

10:32 AM  
Blogger Bob Waters said...

Just out of curiosity, Sunday... how old are you?

Sunday, you've been bamboozled.

Churches such as the one you visited exist expressly for the purpose of deceiving naive Westerners like yourself. Every aspect of their lives- even the sermon texts and their content- are controlled by the government in Beijing- literally the bloodiest and most murderous in recorded history.

You do it in naive innocence, but you're defending pure evil- and those who are up to their armpits in the blood of your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I pray that your eyes are opened!

9:05 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

Bob, why don't you go there, attend Sunday service yourself?

Have you been to China?

If you need help, look up Paul and Bernece Noll.

http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Church/China-Xinzheng-Church-1.html

10:14 AM  
Blogger Stan said...

Or you could lok up Mao Zedong and what he did for the religious.

6:26 PM  
Blogger max said...

I have been there, that is the commie version of Christianity. It's all a joke. They permit all religions an all political parties... with a catch 22.. they must be under the control of th CCP. So they have the democratic (CCP party) etc etc.
This is their way of controlling everything, they bring them into their fold rather than exclude them and make them martyrs .
It is effective propaganda.
Even Buddhism and Taoism is under the control of the CCP. The senior abbots must attend school in Beijing which is run by the CCP and all the top Buddhist priests are e...strangely enough CCP Career Party Members.

It's all a joke!
Tell me "chliu" should we call you "comrade"(tongzhi) . What is your kickback ?
Are you the first wave to soften us up for the invasion?
You are a joke.

10:34 AM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

Max, or "blogblugger", do you have any proof to back up your accusation?

(or should I just counter-accuse you of being on the take, so our 5 year old ego can call it even?)

Name the place in Seattle, I'll be glad to meet you or your friend, so you can put this fear of yours to rest.

Or turn me in to the authority, talking trash in cyberspace is for little children.

1:26 PM  
Blogger THE RIGHT WING AGENDA said...

http://www.falundafa.org/

There are millions of us and soon the world will know of all that your government has done.

NO MORTAL IS ABOVE THE FA!!!

2:05 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

Dude, I'm an American.

And I would love to see Falun Gong "clearify the truth" about what my government is doing in Iraq, something the world already know.

Because then the Freedom House, NED, CIA money will dry up for them. Heck maybe a crack-down too.

3:40 PM  
Blogger Felix said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:40 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

I go with what the local Chinese media (not the official media) says:

http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=+%CF%F4%C9%BD+%B2%F0+%BD%CC%BB%E1&cl=3

The church was in fact condemned and torn down. Local government decided not to approve the church building, in light of the economic value of the land.

As to weither there was conflict between the riot police and the protesters, I believe there was:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E4%BA%BA%E6%9D%83%E6%B0%91%E8%BF%90%E4%BF%A1%E6%81%AF%E4%B8%AD%E5%BF%83+%E8%90%A7%E5%B1%B1

According to independent human rights monitor in China, the protesters "collided" with the police enforcing the demonlition.

What's interesting is Epoch Times is the only paper that made the number of police bigger, and changed "collided" with "beaten".

2:04 AM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

The independent human rights monitor is in Hong Kong. It is widely quoted, including VOA and Epoch Times.

2:13 AM  
Blogger Felix said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10:15 PM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

This is while Iraqis and Afghans are slauthered by machine guns en mass, right?

Do you know the nickname for those large calibur machine guns are "people mower"?

11:01 AM  
Blogger bobby fletcher said...

Felix, you censored me in your blog, so I think it's only fair for me to do the same.

1:52 PM  
Blogger Felix said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:39 AM  

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